Daniel Innerarity: “Han caducado todas las formas en las que cristalizó el estado nacional”

Daniel-Innerarity-catedratico
Publicado en La Vanguardia
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Idiota, recuerda Daniel Innerarity en su último libro, es el término con el que los griegos definían al que no se ocupaba de los asuntos públicos. ¿Pasa ahora al revés, el inteligente es quien va a lo suyo e intenta destruir lo público, mientras el sistema político se llena de gente cuya inteligencia no valoramos? En su último libro, La política en tiempos de indignación (Galaxia Gutenberg), el catedrático de Filosofía Política, analiza cómo queda la política tras el vendaval de la crisis y el 15-M.

En una etapa de transformaciones, aún no sabemos lo que vendrá, pero sí lo que ya no sirve. ¿Qué política ha quedado ya caduca?

Todas las formas en las que cristalizó el estado nacional, la política de la verticalidad, de la jerarquía y el ordeno y mando, de la relación centro-periferia, de las subordinaciones, todo eso son políticas incompatibles con la lógica que ya funciona en otros ámbitos de la realidad social. La política está transitando a formas de ejercicio de poder en el que haya más bien respeto, reciprocidad, espacios políticos más abiertos e indeterminados.

Usted ve tensiones entre una democracia de partidos -obsesionados con obtener el poder más que con el de representar- y una democracia de público o de audiencias

Los partidos políticos han sido los grandes estructurantes del espacio social y político, cuando estas sociedades estaban articuladas por clases bastantes estables. El voto de clase estaba claro, pero estos espacios están ahora desarticulados. Hay grandes masas de obreros que votan extrema derecha, por ejemplo en Francia, y en París hay barrios de alto poder adquisitivo que votan izquierda. Tenemos un escenario de gran volatilidad. Hemos pasado del cuerpo electoral al mercado político, con todas las reglas, o ausencia de ellas, todos los riesgos y toda la imprevisibilidad del mercado. Ya no se dan las circunstancias de estabilidad del mundo que hacían posible la tradicional política de partidos.

¿Y se va a una democracia de audiencias?

Sobre la política rige también la ley de la instantaneidad. Los sistemas políticos están muy obsesionados con el corto plazo, al dictado de la encuesta electoral del momento y han descuidado la construcción de una voluntad política que requiere otros ritmos, porque si lo hacen, creen que perderán las elecciones, y así asistimos a un curso trepidante de acontecimientos y cambios que dejan poca huella transformadora, sin que se aborden los grandes problemas colectivos.

Bueno, más que la política transforme a la sociedad, se pide más bien que la sociedad cambie la política.

Sí, se da ese efecto. La idea de una política en la que se realizan grandes cambios sociales, aunque la sociedad no los quiera, ha desaparecido del horizonte La política sólo tiene efecto transformador si cuenta con la complicidad de esa misma sociedad que quiere cambiar, como las regulaciones de los mercados financieros pactados en las reuniones de instituciones públicas y privadas en Basilea. O en el gobierno de la educación, ámbito en el cual no se puede realizar ningún cambio significativo sin contar con el consentimiento de la comunidad educativa. La organización de los estados no admiten ya lógicas de exclusión o de sumisión, eso implica crear mecanismos y procedimientos para la resolución de las diferencias con un final indeterminado e incierto y que permitan a los diversos agentes sentirse implicados en la definición de las reglas.

También habla del paso de la democracia de redistribución de recursos (igualdad-desigualdad) a la de reconocimiento (de identidades individuales o nacionales).

La idea es que los conflictos sociales se han diversificado mucho. El antiguo conflicto de la redistribución, esa dinámica izquierda-derecha, se ha aprendido a gestionar, bien o mal. Pero hay otro tipo de reconocimiento que no se traduce en términos económicos y que implican diálogos diferentes. Es evidente que el problema de Catalunya es un conflicto político que no tiene solución en términos simplemente económicos. Antes, en otro momento histórico, lo pudo haber tenido. Pero ahora entran lógicas de respeto y reciprocidad que hacen la solución especialmente difícil. No basta decir cuánto cuesta o cuánto hay que pagar, sino cómo conseguimos que Catalunya quede involucrada en la definición de la convivencia no en términos de subordinación, sino de sujeto político en condiciones de igualdad en el contexto de un estado que tiene diversos centros políticos y de una personalidad muy arraigada y persistente en el tiempo. Esto exige afectos, construcción de confianza, reglas de juego que no predeterminen la solución, sistemas equilibrados para la resolución de conflictos de competencias e interpretación de las leyes, una lógica que no implique ni subordinación ni reducción de estos asuntos a temas de dinero. Se percibe en este tema una psicologización del conflicto que lo hace más difícil de tratar y que tiene que ver más con sentimientos, expectativas y frustraciones que con cuestiones administrativas.

Étienne de la Boétie hablaba de las paradojas de la servidumbre voluntaria. ¿Qué hacer si una ley se mantiene invariable en contra de un sentir mayoritario expresado democráticamente?

Lo primero es no pensar que la legalidad es un cauce rígido, sino más bien apelar a la creatividad política, que tiene que ser capaz de imaginar e inventar fórmulas que la lógica estatal no quiere resolver.

“El orden constitucional supuestamente neutral esconde no poca veces una indiferencia cultural fingida que refuerza la cultura dominante frente a los demás”, dice en su libro. ¿Eso vale para el búnker de Rajoy y los socialistas españoles y también para su reflejo catalán, la voluntad de proclamar una constitución catalana desde una minoría?

Los problemas territoriales no se resuelven a menos que cada uno de los espacios reconozca la pluralidad interna que los constituye. Catalunya es más plural de lo que algunos dicen y España también es más plural de lo que algunos agentes políticos proclaman. La reducción de estos problemas a la lógica plebiscitaria muestra el fracaso de la formación de la voluntad política y los procesos de decisión. Creo más en la fuerza imaginativa de una política deliberativa que en el juego táctico en búsqueda de mayorías que se excluyen o en la imposición de procedimientos que predeterminan el resultado de una manera ventajista. El proceso de toma de decisiones ha tenido muy poca calidad democrática y enseguida hemos renunciado a la construcción de mayorías amplias. En lugar de construir voluntades políticas para ampliar el respaldo de la sociedad, como el Estatut de Catalunya, que con fórmulas imaginativas -lo que suponía renuncias de uno y otro lado-, podría haber obtenido el respaldo del 60, 70, 80 por ciento de los catalanes, se imponen dinámicas para elegir hoy de manera dramática. Seguí muy de cerca el referéndum de Escocia. Ya sabe que la pregunta, ese dramático sí o no, la impuso Cameron. Alex Salmond quería una tercera posibilidad, que hubiera tenido un apoyo enorme.

Algunos analistas dicen que el Estado vuelve, pero vivimos en un capitalismo financiero en el que un Estado, mientras necesite créditos, estará sometido a los mercados financieros. Ahí, y el ejemplo máximo es Grecia, el gobierno se enfrenta al dilema entre lo que quieren los mercados y lo que quiere el elector.

El diagnóstico de lo que pasa es que la política es débil. La gente cree que lo que impide solucionar problemas colectivos fundamentales es que el poder político es muy poderoso y nos tenemos que defender de él. Es al revés, el poder político es muy débil a la hora de imaginar espacios de encuentro de visiones plurales del mundo, la política es débil frente a la lógica de medios de comunicación que dan un tratamiento agitado de los debates públicos e impide lógicas más serenas y tranquilas de deliberación y también es débil porque está a merced de los mercados financieros. Hay una escisión dramática entre responsabilidad y democracia. Aquellos poderes que tienen capacidad de intervenir no rinden cuentas a ningún electorado, lo que les permite hacer ciertas cosas impopulares, mientras los poderes que rinden cuentas al electorado no hacen lo que hay que hacer y a a veces no tienen ni ganas de hacerlo y lo traspasan a instituciones que no tienen responsabilidad con los electores, como el Banco Central Europeo, el FMI o la Comisión Europea. Hace falta una síntesis más equilibrada entre responsabilidad y democracia. Merkel para asegurarse la reelección puso en peligro la reconstrucción europea. Y desde el punto de vista nacional, Tsipras, tras el referéndum, dijo que tenía un compromiso con la voluntad de los electores; y Schäuble, le contestó, “yo también, con el mío”. Es un diálogo de sordos.

¿Muchas de las novedades que usted teoriza tienen en Catalunya un laboratorio? Aquí hay nuevos modelos de partido, líderes de movimientos sociales en varias candidaturas políticas…

La indignación, el 15-M, la impugnación, la crítica, el desafío a las instituciones, son una lógica que busca culpables, que interpela. Pasado el momento histórico, tras el desahogo hay que ir a lo productivo, a la construcción, a buscar un efecto real transformativo. Al tiempo, hay que reconocer los límites de cada uno. Ada Colau, por ejemplo, como líder anti desahucio reprochaba a nuestros gobernantes que no hicieran lo que sabían que podían hacer. Ada Colau, como alcaldesa, reconoce la angustia por problemas que no puede resolver como ella quisiera y piensa -y eso políticamente está muy bien- que no tiene que solucionar casos particulares, sino contextos generales para resolver casos particulares. Los movimientos sociales no se han de confundir con los partidos políticos. Los movimientos sociales han de señalar los problemas y los partidos políticos las maneras posibles de resolverlos.

¿Cuál es la frontera entre popular y populismo?

Hay en estos momentos una sobrevaloración de la inexperiencia en política. En las primarias de Estados Unidos se da gran valor el no tener experiencia política. Creo que nos equivocamos. Ese antagonismo entre lo antiguo y nuevo a favor de lo nuevo como elemento dominante implica la irrupción de la lógica de la moda en el mundo de la política. Hay que buscar un equilibrio. Los movimientos sociales, si no existieran, habría que inventarlos. Los movimientos sociales apelan a la injusticia, se movilizan por un objetivo, no se preguntan por la posibilidad de conseguirlo. Los partidos políticos cuentan votos y los movimientos sociales gestionan el marco de esa contabilidad. Los dos han de colaborar, pero no confundirse.

Usted propone la democracia deliberativa.

Mi idea es que el sistema político ya no puede ser entendido como una mera negociación de opiniones e intereses previamente establecidos, estáticos. Muchas veces los sujetos no saben perfectamente qué quieren y qué preferencias tienen los ciudadanos. El proceso democrático permite que los participantes se aclaren respecto a ellos mismos y se formen un a opinión sobre lo que está en juego. La deliberación permite un aprendizaje colectivo, un descubrimiento colectivo. Cuando en las últimas elecciones europeas, los políticos decían vamos a mandar a Europa a quien mejor defienda nuestros intereses, eso es un error. Tendrían que decir vamos a Europa a ver qué descubrimos, aunque sea un diálogo no exento de conflictividad, un diálogo del que se aprenda y se puedan encontrar fórmulas que ni habíamos soñado ni imaginado. Eso mejoraría las políticas de mediación.

 

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